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Youth Liberation and Pedophilia February 20, 2017

Posted by Summerspeaker in Ageism, Anarchism, Queer politics, Science Fiction, Technology, Transhumanism.

So for some reason, leftists have recently decided to highlight Milo Yiannopoulos’s supposed support of pedophilia as part of the case against em. The key piece of evidence comes from an interview in which Yiannopoulos refused to categorize eir own teenage sexual experiences with older folks as abuse. If we denounce people who define their own experiences against the dominate narrative as evil pedophiles, we’re foreclosing discussion on a complicated topic and engaging in exactly the sort of witch-hunt mentality Yiannopoulos and others right-wing notables (hypocritically) decry.

Under the current ageist regime that treats younger folks as subhuman, young-older sexual encounters involve unequal power dynamics and tend strongly toward abuse that leaves enduring psychic scars. I don’t dispute that. However, at the same time, erasing the agency of folks who’ve experienced young-older sexual encounters supports the dehumanization of younger people. It implies that folks below a certain age don’t know what’s good for them, that we older folks should control them by force.

I hold firm to the notion that younger folks are people, not subhumans. I remember being in that situation. I hated such subordination and will never consider it just. You can fight abusive young-old sexual relationships without supporting ageism. Addressing the matter of pedophilia becomes more challenging when you recognize the humanity of younger folks, but that doesn’t mean we should shy away from this recognition.

Ultimately, it’s possible that smashing ageism and the nuclear family would render young-older sexual relationships unremarkable. That’s the ambitious and disturbing future vision Shulamith Firestone presented in The Dialectic of Sex. I don’t know that that’s correct, but it’s worth contemplating without knee-jerk allegations of pedophilia.

While youth liberation has limited presence at the moment, I suspect technological developments will increasingly prompt challenges to the ageist status quo. For example, what happens when genetic and/or cybernetic enhancement leads to more and more young people (teens, preteens, etc.) demonstrating greater conformity to the norms of maturity and rationality than much older folks? I suspect they’ll demand respect. I hope society gives it to them when the time comes.

(For how this topic relates to queerness and antiqueerness broadly, I recommend Gayle Rubin’s now classic piece. I don’t necessarily agree with all of it, but the essay remains provocative and insightful.)

Update: And once again I’m banned from /r/Anarchism. Ageism is apparently official sub policy. Argue for youth liberation, get banned.

Second Update: Yiannopoulos is now stressing eir anti-pedophile credentials and taking the stance that humor is the way ey copes with what ey describe as victimization (apparently from the priest). Yiannopoulos at same time speaks positively a ten-year relationship ey began at age seventeen with a twenty-nine-year-old. For a thoughtful treatment of the overall issue, I recommend this exchange between Samuel Delany and Will Shetterly.

Third Update: The moral panic over Yiannopoulos’s supposed support for pedophilia got eir book cancelled. Left and sundry are unsurprisingly celebrating this. It figures that Simon & Schuster have no problem publishing somebody who cheerleads  for Donald Trump and for deporting every last undocumented immigrant, but gay pedophilia allegations force a cancellations. Why is it so often only the sex scandals that matter?



1. Robert Lindsay - March 14, 2017

You are welcome to my site, but you have to be a good boy or girl or whatever you identify as. Please read the Comments Rules. Obviously this site goes a bit far for my tastes.

You are attacking people who are trying to be the friends of gays for not passing your purity tests. I have never known one single man in my entire life who had a gay friend. So the idea is just bizarre to me. It’s sort of strange and senseless. But I have a couple of gay friends on the Net. Anyway I am getting to the age where no one has sex anymore anyway. A gay-straight friendship at age 59 may well not be troubled by sexual uncomfortableness.

My experience with gay men has been frankly catastrophic. So I sort of want a divorce is how I want to put it.

But I’m not your average homophobe. In fact, though I am not ecstatic about gay men, homophobes are 100X worse. Keep in mind that I am an androgynous straight man (think David Bowie, NY Dolls, or Mick Jagger) whose life has been messed up by continuous accusations of homosexuality. I have been gaybashed three times, once with a baseball bat. You know us straight guys get gaybashed too. So perhaps I am more of an ally than you think.

It bothers me that I try so far to be a friend to gay men (I work on gay political causes) and all they do is beat me up. I almost feel like going full homophobe over this. If you all don’t want me, I might head over to the other side. Please try to talk me out of this.

You need to understand that most straight men don’t engage in gay sex simply because it doesn’t turn them on. You are not straight so you have no idea the aversion most straight men have for anything even slightly gay. That’s the one thing you don’t do. Straight men don’t engage in anything remotely because most of them think that’s worse than cancer.

I guess my problem is that getting rid of that aversion is obviously going to lead to a lot more bisexual men. You would be lying if you said this will not happen.

Also we do not respect effeminate men. But I have met some straight-acting gay men recently and I could not believe how much I respected them. If they act masculine enough, gay men would sure be a lot more respected.

Younger gay men seem completely different from the older ones I grew up with. They’re…saner. The gay men in my generation were pretty damn nuts. These young guys are different. It’s a whole new world with this new generation.

You ask me why no gay friends. I have had 100’s of straight friends. Not one had a gay friend. So I’m not exactly alone here.

And yes my experience with gay and yes, bi men is that they never take no for an answer and they never stop trying to fuck me. A number of them are lucky they didn’t get punched. And a number of my straight friends have had exactly the same experience with gay men, friendships with gay men, even acquiantances with gay men. S

Seems like we have a self-control problem here and it’s on the gay end and not on your end.

Why don’t you guys deal with this? It’s your problem. Quit trying to fuck straight men unless you want a knuckle sandwich. Learn to take no for an answer. Ball’s in your court.

That said I am very interested in your views on adult-minor sex although I draw the line at sexarche. After the sex drive has come on, it’s logical that teens would want to fuck adults and vice versa. I know sexarche hits at age 13 in girls these days and most are masturbating to orgasm every single day. They’re horny as Hell! And teenage girls quite frequently seduce adult men. As in, they walk up to you and grab your cock. As in they openly proposition you. Girls all the way down to age 13 overtly seduce grown men. As in, they see us naked and they grab our cocks and start jerking them. Got it?

To me, prepubertal children have no sex drive at all. I never had one as a boy. My girlfriends told me they never had one til sexarche. So yeah we need to rethink the teen thing but I am still going to come down hard on men who mess with girls 12-under.

I am sort of with you on this youth-age thing, and I get bashed all the time as “pedophile.” I ever get reported to the police for that fairly regularly. This is a Mass Hysteria.

If your straight allies don’t pass your purity tests, why come in the door swinging? Why not talk to us in a friendly way and try to talk us out of the POV you don’t like. You’re setting up a big backlash and you just making homophobia worse.

If you want to keep commenting on my site, just comment and I will let you, but you have to agree to Comments Rules. On the other hand, it may not be to your liking.

2. Summerspeaker - March 14, 2017

As far as the fraught question of sexual relationships across age difference, I’m not sure you understand the position I’m trying to articulate. I agree the sexual interactions of folks in their early teens (and younger) with older people can be more complicated than the popular narrative of predatory pedophilia. If you examine the research and personal accounts, you’ll find that at least a few people have remember positively or ambivalently sexual encounters they had with older folks while they were young teens (or younger). Man-boy and perhaps woman-boy sexual encounters seem more likely to be view positively later in life than man-girl encounters for whatever reason. (It probably has something to do with patriarchy.)

However, that doesn’t mean I’m condoning or encouraging such sexual relationships, especially not current circumstances! The social stigma against older people seeking out sexual encounters with young teens (and younger) probably prevents more harm than it causes. In such a deeply ageist society, the huge power imbalance between younger folks and adults lends itself to abuse.

My inspiration for addressing this issue come from Shulamith Firestone, who wrote back in 1970 for the need to liberate younger folks as part of the feminist revolution. Ultimately, youth liberation entails at least some acceptance of youth sexual agency and ability to consent. In a hypothetical revolutionary future, perhaps sexual encounters/relationships between young teens (and younger?) and older folks could happen without any tendency toward abuse, as Firestone imagines. That’s not the world we live in today.

Now, back to the topic of your issues with gay/bi men. As mentioned, of course I agree that sexual harassment and not taking no for an answer ain’t cool. Some gay/bi men do practice these things; I’ve experienced a bit of myself. However, that doesn’t make it appropriate to generalize this to all gay/bi men, especially considering that many straight men do the same with women. It’s an issue with masculinity, though of course women and others who don’t identify as men commit sexual harassment and screw up consent at times.

So for that legitimate grievance, I recommend queer feminism and its emphasis on consent. The same goes the matter of bashing. Of course it’s horrible you’ve been gaybashed. That’s part of what feminists are talking about with toxic masculinity. Instead of retreating to stereotypical masculine homosocial bonding that freaks out at any hint of gayness, why not instead cultivate alternative social norms? Again, if straight men can be friends with straight women without sexually harassing them, the same should be possible for straight men and gay men.

Personally, as someone who’s potentially sexually attracted to a lot of the people I interact with on a daily basis, I don’t see the big deal. It ain’t exactly difficult to refrain from sexual harassment. I mean, sure, intense sexual/aesthetic attraction can be distracting, but you get over it. (As disclaimer, I perhaps experience attenuated sexual attraction compared with some other folks, particularly certain men. It’s never overwhelming for me in the fashion that, say, anger is. Regardless, coping with powerful feelings without harassing or assaulting others constitutes the most basic social skill.)

I’m not sure when you think I came in the door swinging. I was genuinely unsure if you were serious when I posted my first comment. (I hadn’t read much else on your blog. I stumbled on their while researching for a debate against the alt-right.)

Robert Lindsay - March 14, 2017

We are the Alt Left. We are supposedly at war with you guys, as you all are SJW’s. But you seem ok to me. To me, the real war is with the Right, Trump and the Republicans. And I have supported the Antifa which caused outrage on the Alt Left because they are supposedly “violent regressives.” Antifa probably want to beat me up as a fascist, sexist, racist, antisemite, homophobe, pedophile (you and me both), transphobe, bla bla. But I will support them until they attack me I guess. Resistance to fascism is necessary and power only understands one thing.

The Alt Left is the Left, and you are on the Left too. At worst you guys are some of our dear comrades who may have gone somewhat insane. But you are still our people. You are with us. Trump, the Republicans, the Alt Right, they’re the enemy. The enemy is the White Rich, not Blacks or Browns or Muslims or whatever.

I am also waging war against calling you guys regressives because to me the problem with you all is that you are too PROGRESSIVE lol if anything. It really is possible to go too far to the left. You guys are just way out in front of almost everyone. For instance, the language used on this blog is going to make 90% of straight men and probably women mad.

I am sure you are talking to your own kind here and I preach to the choir also but there is something to be said to be reaching out to the masses. And what you are working for goes far beyond basic gay rights and into some stuff that most won’t be down for.

I do think there is something wrong with gay and bi men because my experience with them has been so universally bad. And by bi men here I conclude guys who anyone would think are straight (predominantly straight men) who have a small bisexual component. Actually 80% of men with a bi component are mostly straight. These are guys no one would think are gay except me who is onto them. And they won’t take no either.

Maybe it’s just male sexuality. Maybe I am the hunted here complaining about the hunters. Maybe we men are just fucks who won’t take no and never stop. A lot of women say this about us. Your argument that men don’t like gays because they are afraid that gay men will treat them like they treat women is interesting, but in my case, harassment is still harassment. I’m in the same boat as these women bitching about men who never stop.

I am also doing a lot of scientific work around sexual orientation which is an interest of mine. I work with a man named Joel Kort on that sometimes. I am a psychological counselor whose work centers a lot around sexual orientation and pedophilic stuff. These are mostly nonpedophiles who are bothered by intrusive thoughts of such (OCD) but I also worked with a couple of pedophiles and I have had several gay male clients. I really liked some of them and I want the same for them as I do for you and me, not 1% less for any of you.

This new generation of gay men seems a lot saner. The gay and bi men in my generation were really nutty and flaky. I am 59 years old. I haven’t had the same sort of problems with these young guys. I could maybe almost be a friend or an acquaintance with one. I think a lot of the mental health issues reliably connected with gay and bi men must boil down to societal stuff. These young guys are saner because society’s nicer. My generation’s gays were nutty, flaky (and often bad) because society was not nice.

Understand where I am coming from. I was fired by a gay boss for not sucking his cock. Two friends of mine roomed with gay men and the result was catastrophic each time. Both gay men tried to blackmail my friends into sex, the penalty of saying no being loss of job and being thrown out into the street. One friend even got into bisexuality as a result of being forced into it this way. Of course women bitch that we men blackmail them like this all the time too.

I had male model good looks as a young man and was offered jobs there a couple of times. Well you know gay men like guys like that. So I’ve been beating them off with a stick for decades. I knew some male models and they were nearly violent homophobes from the incessant come-ons from gay men. They had started out gay-friendly.

You guys need to see how you are pissing people off. It’s helpful for you or for your project. As a man who has been gaybashed, homophobia hurts you and me both. Let’s not make it worse.

3. Robert Lindsay - March 14, 2017

As far as the age stuff, I think you and I have a good meeting place to discuss a common interest. I have no interest in underage girls myself, though they are definitely tempting. I had sex with many of them as a teen and young man from age 18-21. They continued to openly proposition me for many years after that. I taught school. I had 13 year old girls openly proposition me in front of the whole class.

You misunderstand me about young teens. Once that sex drive comes in, it’s up for grabs. I study females as an interest and I understand them better than women. Once that sex drive hits, the 13 year old girl turns into a woman! In some very important ways. She was the same interests, desires and drives as a grown woman. And she wants to fuck. Boys. And men. And even 13 year old girls seduce grown men. As in putting her head in your lap and rubbing your cock through your jeans. As in seeing stepdad naked and walking up to him and grabbing his cock. And if men take them up on it, they like it like any grown woman would.

Now prepubertal girls…I do not think they have a sex drive, so I want to criminalize that. My scientific study has found that they have no sex drive at all. It’s not turned on yet. I do not believe they lubricate. And all the women I know say they never wanted to fuck before age 13. So messing with the kiddies is still pedo and wrong.

But with the teenagers, it’s a whole other ball of wax. It’s often consensual, the girls often seduce the men, and many times the girls insist they were not harmed. Most primitive societies allow girls to start having sex upon onset of sexarche.

Fucking teenage girls is not pedophilia. An exclusive or fixated interest in young teens is hebephilia, but that didn’t even make it into the DSM because it was deemed too normal! Exclusive or fixated interest in teens is ephebephilia. It’s not common.

With boys it is very difficult. Yes I know young gay teenage boys want to fuck. Boys. And men. And teenager – adult man relationships are extremely common in gay culture, vastly more common that such in straight culture. And I can back that up with good data. Face it pederasty has a long history in gay culture back to the Ancients.

Where we run into problems is with gay men seducing boys who are not necessarily gay. Who are basically straight. And this is quite easy to do as many teenage boys are pretty confused. This is just wrong. Many straight men were seduced by gay men as teens and the results were pretty disastrous.

If you want to write up the Alt Left, feel free. You probably won’t like us, and a lot of your allies want to kill us, but really they are mistaken. We are supposedly at war with you SJW’s, but to me, I would rather sign an armistice with you for now and unite with you against the Right. If you are interested in the Alt Right, you might find the Alt Left interesting too.

Nice to meet you comrade.

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